Your comments about religions, "born agains", and other christians hit home. There are so many of those in judiasm, that we barely can stay ahead of today's modern day pogrom of assimilation of our culture and language.
At any rate, I am writing this here because I felt a) it's MY blog, b) I might actually have a few things that might be interersting to others, and c) I'm actually TRYING to communicate with some open minded NON-Radical folks from other mid-east (read NON-Israel) countries, to see if a dialog and or agreements can be made.
You said, and I quote the passage you were complaining about too...
I am inserting (1), (2), (3) to point out what I am going to comment on in your quote...
yournamehere said...Of course I agree with you regarding the conservative Christians, but if I have to make a choice between Hezbollah and Israel, I'm picking Israel every fucking time, and believe me, it has nothing to do with Biblical prophecy and everything to do with self-preservation.
Israel doesn't want us dead; Hezbollah does. And when I say us, I mean me and you, Fritz, and everyone you love, buried under the rubble of a building or spread amongst the debris of a crash site. Are the lives of American citizens or Israeli soldiers more valuable in the eyes of God than the lives of the Hezbollah? No, but they are to me.
Fritz, everyone is a conservative when it comes to protecting their own. Imagine if someone came into your house and tried to harm you and your fiancee. Either of you, if you could, would stop that person BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, making the decision that that person's life wasn't worth as much as the life of a loved one. It's not a Godlike quality; it's a human one.
Oh, I wish there was peace, really I do. I wish everyone on earth pissed liquid sunshine and had flowers growing out of their asses, but that's not reality. And no, I don't agree with praying for the rockets and I don't think "God is on our side" but sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils.
Finally, I realize innocent people have been killed by Israel, mostly because Hezbollah hides like cowards among them. But innocent Israelis are killed too, mostly because Hezbollah targets civilians.
And you replied... I completely disagree with you. Furthermore, I believe I must now do a separate post all together about this issue.
Right after Israel was 're-created' in 1948 -->(1)<--, they went on a mission. A mission to disperse and get rid of Palestinians. (2)Hezbollah was made up of about 20 families that were uprooted from Israel.(3) They had no place to go. No one wanted them. Finally, they settled in the hills of Lebanon, where they were still unwanted. (4) They got mad. I think I would, too. Meanwhile, Israel's secret police have also been killing, murdering, pillaging and raping dozens of Palestinian towns and the like.(5) It's ridiculous how much Israel is allowed to get away with, just because it is the poster-child for Christianity, Judaism, whatever. Did you know in 2003 over 300 Iraqi scientists were systematically murdered by Israel's secret police? (6)We don't hear about that because the American media companies don't want to piss off Israel. I'm not anti-Semetic. (7)I just want to say that for the record. I have a problem with any country that is founded on someone else's land and then is commended as some kind of patriotic nation-state, lauded by all as a new oasis of Zionism. (8) Hezbollah is angry, yes. So are the Shiites, the Saudis, the Bin Ladens, etc. Western influence has infiltrated, colonized, and destroyed many of the Mid. East's culture(9). I guess I'd be pissed off, too. I don't think that any culture of violence is a good one, and I don't think it's fair that Hezbollah parks artillery in the middle of villages.(10) What I do know is this: we cannot support any country that uses its extremist policies to maim another(11). In the case of Israel, we are playing a pathetic role in supporting some kind of 'end of days' Zionist philosophy when the truth is--Christians forget that Zion is really just an idea of a peaceful place. (12) Anyway, I disagree with your sentiments. (13)I also think we deviated from my initial point, which is that violence is no way in keeping with Christianity, and I'm tired of Conservative Christians using Israel and war and violence as some kind of new biblical excuse to abuse power.(14)
Mark Again Here:
Wow. 14 items to talk about this will be long.
--->(1) Right after Israel was 're-created' in 1948.
Excuse me. Modern history cannot start in "1967" or 1948. We need to rewind at least a hundred and fifty years, back to the OTTOMAN empire, defeated by the Allies (British) in World War I.
After the Turks were defeated in WWI, Britian had the (then prestigious, now dubious) task of ADMINISTERING the "British mandate Terrorities"
Factoid fact # 1.... Did you know that in the mideast, specifically in the old Turk empire, most lands were owned by absentee owners? Most of "Palestine, specifically where most of Israel sits today was owned by people in places like tripoli, and or cyprus, and or terhan??
Factoid fact 2. When THE UNITED NATIONS, (yes the UN actually proposed the TWO STATE solution to the PALESTINIAN/JEWISH problem in 1948) proposed a TWO state solution, one of Jews, one of Arabs (palestinians), WHAT HAPPENED? Can you tell ME FRITZY???
Yes, thats right SIXTEEN (16) arab armies descended on the newly created Jewish state, and attempted to blast it out of existance.
As a mater of fact this leads to Factoid fact # 3....
Did you know the FIRST of the UN's MANY MANY MANY Mideast resolutions (in 1947) WAS DELIBERATELY and absolutely REJECTED by EVERY ARAB country?
No. Really. They refused to accept the possibility that a Jewish state had a right to exist.
(Sort of how now our "play" president is now denying that IRAN has the right to be a state, and is getting closer to bringing us to yet a THIRD mid-east war, in IRAN...but I digress...my mind is too easy to interrupt, sorry...)
Factoid fact # 4. Did you know that the "supreme" religious leader (the "grand Mufti" of Jerusalem) (**) told ALL of his followers in "east Jerusalem", that they should leave their houses for a day, while the arab armies come to scalp and remove the jewish problem from their midst????
(** he gets quoutes around his name because in 1922-1926 he was a TERRORIST who murdered hundereds of JEWS in palestine in BLATENT anti-semetic POGROMS...)
...So lets SEE....we're up to 4 facts, on your FIRST sentence.
Oh yes, factoid #1. The Absentee landowners were VERY VERY VERY happy to sell their land at a HUGE profit (without telling the squatters that didnt pay rent either) to the JEWISH agency, a group that was established in the late 1890's to promote Zionism, and a rebirth of the jewish nation..
SO Guess what??? ALL our happy palestinians that were kicked out in 1948???I'd guess maybe 85% of them DIDn't pay RENT, and DIDNT OWN the land they were told to leave (factoid #4) by THEIR (so called) RELIGIOUS leaders.
Oh, and factoid #2 *UN's declaration of TWO states in the british mandate area, and factoid # 3 (TOTAL Arab rejection of the concept of a JEWISH state) also go together.
As a matter of fact, I've written about this in the past..
See (a parable about wanting your house back after being away 50 years ) and HERE about WHAT HAPPENED to the theoretical PALESTINIAN state from the 1948 two state partition PLAN
--->(2) they went on a mission. A mission to disperse and get rid of Palestinians.
Firstly, see factoid fact # 4 above. IT wasn't a mission to get RID of the palestinians.
As a matter of fact EVERY palestinian who DID NOT LEAVE when israel was established was GIVEN FULL israeli citizenship
factoid fact #5
DID you know that in the "REFUGEE camps" that were established in EGYPT, Lebanon, SYRIA, and JORDAN(Formerly know as TRANS-Jordan), and recipent of 90% of the total land in the british mandata
(factoid fact #6 interrupting # 5-sorry)
#6: Trans-Jordan ANNEXED the original "ARAB" state proposed from the UN.
#6a) in 1924 a british diplomat, (you may remember his name, he became a big guy during world war II-- was the administrator of the BRITISH mandate in palestine.
He did a FAVOR for a friend of his, and gave 40% of the PRE-1948 territory to his crony to create a state, made up of nothing, previously, called TRANS-JORDAN.
back to factoid # 5: EVERY single arab who LEFT palestine no matter on WHOSE advise, and went to those other countries, NEVER EVER EVER was given citizenship in (syria, lebanon, jordan OR egypt)...NEVER even considered, or OFFERED..
factoid #6 trans-Jordan annexed the original 1948 Arab state
factoid #6a That brit, (Sir Winston Churchill for the un-initiated) gave 40% of ALL the terroritory that was UNDER HIS STEWARDSHIP *A*W*A*Y* to CREATE a new country...
factoid #5 Israel gave CITIZENSHIP to non-Jews who DID NOT flee when the war occurred. ARAB countries made the refugges into HAGGARD people who were declared STATELESS... and became bitter.
---> (3) Hezbollah was made up of about 20 families that were uprooted from Israel.
Major bull-turds, I'd like to see where you found this one. See factoid # 4, and 5 (about citizenship...)
I;d like to see YOU live in a refugee camp for 50 years, and see what YOU say.
Hey.. see my post on (a parable) above for my take on it.
factoid #7 almost 2,000 years after the destruction of the second jewish temple in the year 70AD, Jews STILL observe a day of TOTAL mourning, and fasting for all the terrible things that have happened on that day. ...So, we've been mourning jerusalem for 2,000 years (and I for one do pray three times a day for it to come back...)
So if you read my parable, I agree possession is sometimes more important than ownership, but we go back an extra 1,000 years BEFORE the moslems EVER even existed as an organized religion, so WE have dibs on the land (if you want to put it in extremely simple terms!)
--->(4) They had no place to go. No one wanted them. Finally, they settled in the hills of Lebanon, where they were still unwanted.
Total bullshit. Hizbollah was founded in 1984, after Israel invaded Lebanon, because the lebanese army was firing rockettes at the israeli settlements less then a mile from the border. YES it was a HUGE mistake for them to stay for 16 years in southern lebanon.
Factoid fact # 8: did you know that EVERY single time that ISRAEL has given back some land to an ARAB (country/government/government in waiting/terrorist group)
Israel has been forced to take it a SECOND time, because the group has (usually) gone back on its word?
DID you know (most likely answer is NO, i didnt!) that Israel had conquered the ENTIRE SINAI desert FIRST in 1956, (BUT was persuaded/told by the US of A) to GIVE it back to egypt?!!!
We gave back the SINAI in 1980... What have we gotten? terrorist bombs in tourist spots.
We gave back the Gaza Strip (
Factoid fact #9: did you know that ISRAEL TRIED to give the Gaza Strip BACK to egypt in 1980, but EGYPT REFUSED IT? Bet you didnt know that EITHER!
(oh, yes, we gave the gaza strip back in 2005. AND what happened? now they use it to send missles closer to the israeli border again...
More on --->4:
Believe it or not, the PLO started INSIDE Jordan, and was KICKED OUT of Jordan in (1974 or 1975? and moved to lebanon..
Hey factoid # 10... DO you remember that the PLO was a TERRORIST group, and they KILLED innocent ATHLETES at the 1972 OLYMPICS in GERMANY????
--->(5) They got mad. I think I would, too. Meanwhile, Israel's secret police have also been killing, murdering, pillaging and raping dozens of Palestinian towns and the like.
Please provide citations???
re: mad, see my discussion of PALESTINIAN Refugee CAMPS (still here after 58 years--you think they'd get the message?
--->(6) It's ridiculous how much Israel is allowed to get away with, just because it is the poster-child for Christianity, Judaism, whatever. Did you know in 2003 over 300 Iraqi scientists were systematically murdered by Israel's secret police?
Again, I'd like to see citations.
Oh, and factoid #11. Did you know what else happened in 1984?
An Israeli Air force team crossed over 7 borders, and destroyed the Iraqi Nuculear reactor that was within WEEKS of going LIVE..
Care to guess whether SAADAM would have had a bomb by now if that hit HADN't taken place???
---(7) We don't hear about that because the American media companies don't want to piss off Israel. I'm not anti-Semetic.
.... Sorry Dear... It smells like a Rose.. It feels like a Rose. It pricks your fingers like a rose, it MUST be a rose.
Now I am not saying it's BLATENT anti-semitism. BUT here's a quick test.
Do you know what "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is?
if you say, it's the jewish handbook for ruling the world, you fail. If you say it was a clever hoax foisted on the world in the 1850's from russia, you'd know your jewish history.
Did you know that
(factoid fact #12) (arab) Countries such as Saudia Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE, STILL PUBLISH and hold the "protocols" as the TRUTH, and say the ENTIRE world is owned by Jewish media?
(and no Rupert Murdoch is just a DUMB f'ing christian born again uber-right wing nut, but he's NOT jewish, even if he supports the CABAL that keeps our REAL President (Mr. VP in public) in power.
--->(8) I just want to say that for the record. ( with previous #7 I guess)
I have a problem with any country that is founded on someone else's land and then is commended as some kind of patriotic nation-state, lauded by all as a new oasis of Zionism.
EXCUSE ME? in 1917, Britian, as the representative nation that defeated the previous RULERS offered the jews two choices of land under britsih control for a jewish state.
ONE was (not a factoid).. Uganda. The other was Israel.. WE chose the one that was ALWAYS ours.
...See my parable on LAND ownership... if it was mine 58 years ago (the arab argument), isn't it MORE so MY land if I ALSO owned it 1,500 YEARS AGO>????
SORRY. this SOUNDs like an ANTI-SEMETIC statement, and IS one.
perhaps not originally YOURS...but oops, your (slip) is showing...
--->(9) Hezbollah is angry, yes. So are the Shiites, the Saudis, the Bin Ladens, etc. Western influence has infiltrated, colonized, and destroyed many of the Mid. East's culture.
I can't talk about this one sensibly.
IT will take all day.
To simply put it, ONE way to look at the current "shia/suni" ISlamists is that a MINORITY of them want to put the world back the way it was 1,000 years ago, when SALIDIN conquered Western EUROPE, and there was a islamic EMPIRE from Spain, through the mideast.
This of course led to the CRUSADES, where "good" christians, came and (before getting to the moslems, took the opportunity to "PRACTICE" killing (the goo' old JEWS before getting to the HOLY land....)
If you analyze some of this current FRINGE (AND I DECLARE that I too, KNOW it is a FRINGE, although VERY VERY VERY VERY VOCAL fringe minority)
ALL they want is ONE islamic state in the ENTIRE mideast, and streching across RUSSIA, in to china, and down into the FAR East....
So, basically, NO I disagee with #9 Hezbollah is angry, yes. Why? because their reason for arming nad having guns was taken away six years ago when Israel pulled out of lebanon. The IRANIANS who ARMED them got MAD at the USA and that is why we had that war this SUMMER!
(more 9) So are the Shiites, the Saudis, the Bin Ladens, etc. Western influence has infiltrated, colonized, and destroyed many of the Mid. East's culture. And thank heavens for that. Perhaps a generation of arab women MIGHT actually get the chance to get an EDUCATION for a change... After all they DO get one in israel, and the palestinian terratories (not an islamic state either) also has open education which is against the islamic principles.
---> (10) I guess I'd be pissed off, too. more 9
---> (10) I don't think that any culture of violence is a good one, and I don't think it's fair that Hezbollah parks artillery in the middle of villages.(10)
Oh??? forgive me fritz. I was too harsh on you. You actually saw through the Hizblolah PR campaign, and accepted the fact that they used THEIR population as a shield. They deserved EVERY single death they brought on their people. and the people never stopped it.. what a shame...
--->(11) What I do know is this: we cannot support any country that uses its extremist policies to maim another.
Oh this is RICH!
OH you mean like SOUTH africa and Apartheid. or do you perhaps mean Zimbawe/Rhodesia?
Let's see the analogies between Israel and South Africa.
Israel: accepted the 1948 resolution to declare two states in the occupied land
Arabs: REJECTED outright. TO this day REFUSES to admit the right of JEWS to ahve a land there.
Israel: Accepted people who decided NOT to run away, and stayed in their homes in 1948.
ARABS: Forced the people to live like REFUGEES, NEVER OFFERED them citizenship, and never even issued passports to them...
Zimbawae: Now ruled for 20 years by a black man, after violenting overthrowing the white government.
So. Africa: Was able to achieve PEACEFUL transition, with NO white flight.
Zimbawae: Now illegal for certain reporters or Press to report from within country
So. Afr. Free Press
Israel: Free Press. Jewish papers, secular papers, Arab papers. NO censorship
(or no more then in USA)
Arab countries: some places (iraq as example 65 reporters killed in past year. CENESORSHIP. NO freedom of the prss.
--->(12) In the case of Israel, we are playing a pathetic role in supporting some kind of 'end of days' Zionist philosophy when the truth is--Christians forget that Zion is really just an idea of a peaceful place.
I totally,and violently disagree. I do NOT say prayers every evening, morning and NOON to say that I want the PEACE of Zion.
I want the BIBLICAL LAND of ISRAEL.
We were THE chosen people. AND it wasn't always BLOODLESS. Today some of what was documented in the bible might even be considered "Ethnic Cleansing"....
I agree that a good deal of the Christian population of THIS country believes in Israel in a step towards Gog vs. Magog (see here and here and here--MOST CHILLING for more!
The last one happens to make an interesting suggestion that Israel has submarines that are capable of deliving STRATEGIC weapons.
I'd suggest that AFTER IRAN nukes ISRAEL off the map, the ISRAELI nuculear submarine fleet (nuke weapons that is) will DECIMATE the mid-east, and make the ENTIRE mideast, INCLUDING RIYAD, MECCA, and EVERY SINGLE oil field inthe mid-easy UNUSABLE for the next 300 year.
This will be the Nuculear (as our DEAR dodo-headed president says) WINTER to END ALL WINTERS.
The good news (if we "christians" in the us of a) are lucky, is that
perhaps Israel will also have taken out ALL the OTHER islamic countries, like PAKISTAN, as well as muslim FAR EAST.
But by that time, we'll have ALL heard that LOUD un-mistakable TEKIAH GODOLAH Shofar call, signaling the destruction of our physical world, and our (all) moving to a new spiritual metapysical plane.
ME? I'd rather let George W. play president for 2 more years, especially if someone can stop him from nuking Iran first. that would be a VERY bad card to play.
---> (13) Anyway, I disagree with your sentiments. ME too Fritzy. I think I have done a very thorough job of proving your statements mostly incorrect, or not based on facts. Howerver, for what it's worth, it IS YOUR opinion, and I respect it too!
---> (14) I also think we deviated from my initial point, which is that violence is no way in keeping with Christianity, and I'm tired of Conservative Christians using Israel and war and violence as some kind of new biblical excuse to abuse power.
I agree. The current government of Neo-cons deserves to be tried en-masse as war criminals, and placed in line to be tortured, as their punishment, exactly the same punsihments that they allowed in their "unconstitutional" modifications to the constitution.
Mark b in nj