Thursday, August 31, 2006

IsraeL: Oh Fritzy, Fritzy, Fritzy...

Oh Fritzy, Fritzy, Fritzy.

Your comments about religions, "born agains", and other christians hit home. There are so many of those in judiasm, that we barely can stay ahead of today's modern day pogrom of assimilation of our culture and language.

At any rate, I am writing this here because I felt a) it's MY blog, b) I might actually have a few things that might be interersting to others, and c) I'm actually TRYING to communicate with some open minded NON-Radical folks from other mid-east (read NON-Israel) countries, to see if a dialog and or agreements can be made.

You said, and I quote the passage you were complaining about too...

I am inserting (1), (2), (3) to point out what I am going to comment on in your quote...
yournamehere said...Of course I agree with you regarding the conservative Christians, but if I have to make a choice between Hezbollah and Israel, I'm picking Israel every fucking time, and believe me, it has nothing to do with Biblical prophecy and everything to do with self-preservation.

Israel doesn't want us dead; Hezbollah does. And when I say us, I mean me and you, Fritz, and everyone you love, buried under the rubble of a building or spread amongst the debris of a crash site. Are the lives of American citizens or Israeli soldiers more valuable in the eyes of God than the lives of the Hezbollah? No, but they are to me.

Fritz, everyone is a conservative when it comes to protecting their own. Imagine if someone came into your house and tried to harm you and your fiancee. Either of you, if you could, would stop that person BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, making the decision that that person's life wasn't worth as much as the life of a loved one. It's not a Godlike quality; it's a human one.

Oh, I wish there was peace, really I do. I wish everyone on earth pissed liquid sunshine and had flowers growing out of their asses, but that's not reality. And no, I don't agree with praying for the rockets and I don't think "God is on our side" but sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils.

Finally, I realize innocent people have been killed by Israel, mostly because Hezbollah hides like cowards among them. But innocent Israelis are killed too, mostly because Hezbollah targets civilians.
---------------------------------------

And you replied... I completely disagree with you. Furthermore, I believe I must now do a separate post all together about this issue.

Right after Israel was 're-created' in 1948 -->(1)<--, they went on a mission. A mission to disperse and get rid of Palestinians. (2)Hezbollah was made up of about 20 families that were uprooted from Israel.(3) They had no place to go. No one wanted them. Finally, they settled in the hills of Lebanon, where they were still unwanted. (4) They got mad. I think I would, too. Meanwhile, Israel's secret police have also been killing, murdering, pillaging and raping dozens of Palestinian towns and the like.(5) It's ridiculous how much Israel is allowed to get away with, just because it is the poster-child for Christianity, Judaism, whatever. Did you know in 2003 over 300 Iraqi scientists were systematically murdered by Israel's secret police? (6)We don't hear about that because the American media companies don't want to piss off Israel. I'm not anti-Semetic. (7)I just want to say that for the record. I have a problem with any country that is founded on someone else's land and then is commended as some kind of patriotic nation-state, lauded by all as a new oasis of Zionism. (8) Hezbollah is angry, yes. So are the Shiites, the Saudis, the Bin Ladens, etc. Western influence has infiltrated, colonized, and destroyed many of the Mid. East's culture(9). I guess I'd be pissed off, too. I don't think that any culture of violence is a good one, and I don't think it's fair that Hezbollah parks artillery in the middle of villages.(10) What I do know is this: we cannot support any country that uses its extremist policies to maim another(11). In the case of Israel, we are playing a pathetic role in supporting some kind of 'end of days' Zionist philosophy when the truth is--Christians forget that Zion is really just an idea of a peaceful place. (12) Anyway, I disagree with your sentiments. (13)I also think we deviated from my initial point, which is that violence is no way in keeping with Christianity, and I'm tired of Conservative Christians using Israel and war and violence as some kind of new biblical excuse to abuse power.(14)



Mark Again Here:
Wow. 14 items to talk about this will be long.


--->(1) Right after Israel was 're-created' in 1948.

Excuse me. Modern history cannot start in "1967" or 1948. We need to rewind at least a hundred and fifty years, back to the OTTOMAN empire, defeated by the Allies (British) in World War I.
After the Turks were defeated in WWI, Britian had the (then prestigious, now dubious) task of ADMINISTERING the "British mandate Terrorities"

Factoid fact # 1.... Did you know that in the mideast, specifically in the old Turk empire, most lands were owned by absentee owners? Most of "Palestine, specifically where most of Israel sits today was owned by people in places like tripoli, and or cyprus, and or terhan??

Factoid fact 2. When THE UNITED NATIONS, (yes the UN actually proposed the TWO STATE solution to the PALESTINIAN/JEWISH problem in 1948) proposed a TWO state solution, one of Jews, one of Arabs (palestinians), WHAT HAPPENED? Can you tell ME FRITZY???

Yes, thats right SIXTEEN (16) arab armies descended on the newly created Jewish state, and attempted to blast it out of existance.

As a mater of fact this leads to Factoid fact # 3....
Did you know the FIRST of the UN's MANY MANY MANY Mideast resolutions (in 1947) WAS DELIBERATELY and absolutely REJECTED by EVERY ARAB country?
No. Really. They refused to accept the possibility that a Jewish state had a right to exist.
(Sort of how now our "play" president is now denying that IRAN has the right to be a state, and is getting closer to bringing us to yet a THIRD mid-east war, in IRAN...but I digress...my mind is too easy to interrupt, sorry...)

Factoid fact # 4. Did you know that the "supreme" religious leader (the "grand Mufti" of Jerusalem) (**) told ALL of his followers in "east Jerusalem", that they should leave their houses for a day, while the arab armies come to scalp and remove the jewish problem from their midst????

(** he gets quoutes around his name because in 1922-1926 he was a TERRORIST who murdered hundereds of JEWS in palestine in BLATENT anti-semetic POGROMS...)

...So lets SEE....we're up to 4 facts, on your FIRST sentence.

Oh yes, factoid #1. The Absentee landowners were VERY VERY VERY happy to sell their land at a HUGE profit (without telling the squatters that didnt pay rent either) to the JEWISH agency, a group that was established in the late 1890's to promote Zionism, and a rebirth of the jewish nation..

SO Guess what??? ALL our happy palestinians that were kicked out in 1948???I'd guess maybe 85% of them DIDn't pay RENT, and DIDNT OWN the land they were told to leave (factoid #4) by THEIR (so called) RELIGIOUS leaders.

Oh, and factoid #2 *UN's declaration of TWO states in the british mandate area, and factoid # 3 (TOTAL Arab rejection of the concept of a JEWISH state) also go together.

As a matter of fact, I've written about this in the past..
See (a parable about wanting your house back after being away 50 years ) and HERE about WHAT HAPPENED to the theoretical PALESTINIAN state from the 1948 two state partition PLAN

Next...
--->(2) they went on a mission. A mission to disperse and get rid of Palestinians.
Firstly, see factoid fact # 4 above. IT wasn't a mission to get RID of the palestinians.
As a matter of fact EVERY palestinian who DID NOT LEAVE when israel was established was GIVEN FULL israeli citizenship
factoid fact #5
DID you know that in the "REFUGEE camps" that were established in EGYPT, Lebanon, SYRIA, and JORDAN(Formerly know as TRANS-Jordan), and recipent of 90% of the total land in the british mandata
(factoid fact #6 interrupting # 5-sorry)
#6: Trans-Jordan ANNEXED the original "ARAB" state proposed from the UN.
#6a) in 1924 a british diplomat, (you may remember his name, he became a big guy during world war II-- was the administrator of the BRITISH mandate in palestine.
He did a FAVOR for a friend of his, and gave 40% of the PRE-1948 territory to his crony to create a state, made up of nothing, previously, called TRANS-JORDAN.
back to factoid # 5: EVERY single arab who LEFT palestine no matter on WHOSE advise, and went to those other countries, NEVER EVER EVER was given citizenship in (syria, lebanon, jordan OR egypt)...NEVER even considered, or OFFERED..

(review:
factoid #6 trans-Jordan annexed the original 1948 Arab state
factoid #6a That brit, (Sir Winston Churchill for the un-initiated) gave 40% of ALL the terroritory that was UNDER HIS STEWARDSHIP *A*W*A*Y* to CREATE a new country...
factoid #5 Israel gave CITIZENSHIP to non-Jews who DID NOT flee when the war occurred. ARAB countries made the refugges into HAGGARD people who were declared STATELESS... and became bitter.

---> (3) Hezbollah was made up of about 20 families that were uprooted from Israel.
Major bull-turds, I'd like to see where you found this one. See factoid # 4, and 5 (about citizenship...)
I;d like to see YOU live in a refugee camp for 50 years, and see what YOU say.

Hey.. see my post on (a parable) above for my take on it.
factoid #7 almost 2,000 years after the destruction of the second jewish temple in the year 70AD, Jews STILL observe a day of TOTAL mourning, and fasting for all the terrible things that have happened on that day. ...So, we've been mourning jerusalem for 2,000 years (and I for one do pray three times a day for it to come back...)
So if you read my parable, I agree possession is sometimes more important than ownership, but we go back an extra 1,000 years BEFORE the moslems EVER even existed as an organized religion, so WE have dibs on the land (if you want to put it in extremely simple terms!)


--->(4) They had no place to go. No one wanted them. Finally, they settled in the hills of Lebanon, where they were still unwanted.
Total bullshit. Hizbollah was founded in 1984, after Israel invaded Lebanon, because the lebanese army was firing rockettes at the israeli settlements less then a mile from the border. YES it was a HUGE mistake for them to stay for 16 years in southern lebanon.

Factoid fact # 8: did you know that EVERY single time that ISRAEL has given back some land to an ARAB (country/government/government in waiting/terrorist group)
Israel has been forced to take it a SECOND time, because the group has (usually) gone back on its word?

DID you know (most likely answer is NO, i didnt!) that Israel had conquered the ENTIRE SINAI desert FIRST in 1956, (BUT was persuaded/told by the US of A) to GIVE it back to egypt?!!!

We gave back the SINAI in 1980... What have we gotten? terrorist bombs in tourist spots.
We gave back the Gaza Strip (
Factoid fact #9: did you know that ISRAEL TRIED to give the Gaza Strip BACK to egypt in 1980, but EGYPT REFUSED IT? Bet you didnt know that EITHER!
(oh, yes, we gave the gaza strip back in 2005. AND what happened? now they use it to send missles closer to the israeli border again...

More on --->4:

Believe it or not, the PLO started INSIDE Jordan, and was KICKED OUT of Jordan in (1974 or 1975? and moved to lebanon..

Hey factoid # 10... DO you remember that the PLO was a TERRORIST group, and they KILLED innocent ATHLETES at the 1972 OLYMPICS in GERMANY????

--->(5) They got mad. I think I would, too. Meanwhile, Israel's secret police have also been killing, murdering, pillaging and raping dozens of Palestinian towns and the like.
Please provide citations???

re: mad, see my discussion of PALESTINIAN Refugee CAMPS (still here after 58 years--you think they'd get the message?

--->(6) It's ridiculous how much Israel is allowed to get away with, just because it is the poster-child for Christianity, Judaism, whatever. Did you know in 2003 over 300 Iraqi scientists were systematically murdered by Israel's secret police?

Again, I'd like to see citations.
Oh, and factoid #11. Did you know what else happened in 1984?
An Israeli Air force team crossed over 7 borders, and destroyed the Iraqi Nuculear reactor that was within WEEKS of going LIVE..
Care to guess whether SAADAM would have had a bomb by now if that hit HADN't taken place???

---(7) We don't hear about that because the American media companies don't want to piss off Israel. I'm not anti-Semetic.

.... Sorry Dear... It smells like a Rose.. It feels like a Rose. It pricks your fingers like a rose, it MUST be a rose.
Now I am not saying it's BLATENT anti-semitism. BUT here's a quick test.
Do you know what "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is?
if you say, it's the jewish handbook for ruling the world, you fail. If you say it was a clever hoax foisted on the world in the 1850's from russia, you'd know your jewish history.
Did you know that
(factoid fact #12) (arab) Countries such as Saudia Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE, STILL PUBLISH and hold the "protocols" as the TRUTH, and say the ENTIRE world is owned by Jewish media?
(and no Rupert Murdoch is just a DUMB f'ing christian born again uber-right wing nut, but he's NOT jewish, even if he supports the CABAL that keeps our REAL President (Mr. VP in public) in power.

--->(8) I just want to say that for the record. ( with previous #7 I guess)

I have a problem with any country that is founded on someone else's land and then is commended as some kind of patriotic nation-state, lauded by all as a new oasis of Zionism.

EXCUSE ME? in 1917, Britian, as the representative nation that defeated the previous RULERS offered the jews two choices of land under britsih control for a jewish state.

ONE was (not a factoid).. Uganda. The other was Israel.. WE chose the one that was ALWAYS ours.
...See my parable on LAND ownership... if it was mine 58 years ago (the arab argument), isn't it MORE so MY land if I ALSO owned it 1,500 YEARS AGO>????
SORRY. this SOUNDs like an ANTI-SEMETIC statement, and IS one.
perhaps not originally YOURS...but oops, your (slip) is showing...

--->(9) Hezbollah is angry, yes. So are the Shiites, the Saudis, the Bin Ladens, etc. Western influence has infiltrated, colonized, and destroyed many of the Mid. East's culture.
I can't talk about this one sensibly.
IT will take all day.

To simply put it, ONE way to look at the current "shia/suni" ISlamists is that a MINORITY of them want to put the world back the way it was 1,000 years ago, when SALIDIN conquered Western EUROPE, and there was a islamic EMPIRE from Spain, through the mideast.

This of course led to the CRUSADES, where "good" christians, came and (before getting to the moslems, took the opportunity to "PRACTICE" killing (the goo' old JEWS before getting to the HOLY land....)

If you analyze some of this current FRINGE (AND I DECLARE that I too, KNOW it is a FRINGE, although VERY VERY VERY VERY VOCAL fringe minority)
ALL they want is ONE islamic state in the ENTIRE mideast, and streching across RUSSIA, in to china, and down into the FAR East....

So, basically, NO I disagee with #9 Hezbollah is angry, yes. Why? because their reason for arming nad having guns was taken away six years ago when Israel pulled out of lebanon. The IRANIANS who ARMED them got MAD at the USA and that is why we had that war this SUMMER!


(more 9) So are the Shiites, the Saudis, the Bin Ladens, etc. Western influence has infiltrated, colonized, and destroyed many of the Mid. East's culture. And thank heavens for that. Perhaps a generation of arab women MIGHT actually get the chance to get an EDUCATION for a change... After all they DO get one in israel, and the palestinian terratories (not an islamic state either) also has open education which is against the islamic principles.


---> (10) I guess I'd be pissed off, too. more 9
---> (10) I don't think that any culture of violence is a good one, and I don't think it's fair that Hezbollah parks artillery in the middle of villages.(10)

Oh??? forgive me fritz. I was too harsh on you. You actually saw through the Hizblolah PR campaign, and accepted the fact that they used THEIR population as a shield. They deserved EVERY single death they brought on their people. and the people never stopped it.. what a shame...

--->(11) What I do know is this: we cannot support any country that uses its extremist policies to maim another.
Oh this is RICH!

OH you mean like SOUTH africa and Apartheid. or do you perhaps mean Zimbawe/Rhodesia?
Let's see the analogies between Israel and South Africa.
Israel: accepted the 1948 resolution to declare two states in the occupied land
Arabs: REJECTED outright. TO this day REFUSES to admit the right of JEWS to ahve a land there.

Israel: Accepted people who decided NOT to run away, and stayed in their homes in 1948.
ARABS: Forced the people to live like REFUGEES, NEVER OFFERED them citizenship, and never even issued passports to them...

Zimbawae: Now ruled for 20 years by a black man, after violenting overthrowing the white government.
So. Africa: Was able to achieve PEACEFUL transition, with NO white flight.

Zimbawae: Now illegal for certain reporters or Press to report from within country
So. Afr. Free Press
Israel: Free Press. Jewish papers, secular papers, Arab papers. NO censorship
(or no more then in USA)
Arab countries: some places (iraq as example 65 reporters killed in past year. CENESORSHIP. NO freedom of the prss.

--->(12) In the case of Israel, we are playing a pathetic role in supporting some kind of 'end of days' Zionist philosophy when the truth is--Christians forget that Zion is really just an idea of a peaceful place.

I totally,and violently disagree. I do NOT say prayers every evening, morning and NOON to say that I want the PEACE of Zion.
I want the BIBLICAL LAND of ISRAEL.
We were THE chosen people. AND it wasn't always BLOODLESS. Today some of what was documented in the bible might even be considered "Ethnic Cleansing"....

I agree that a good deal of the Christian population of THIS country believes in Israel in a step towards Gog vs. Magog (see here and here and here--MOST CHILLING for more!
The last one happens to make an interesting suggestion that Israel has submarines that are capable of deliving STRATEGIC weapons.
I'd suggest that AFTER IRAN nukes ISRAEL off the map, the ISRAELI nuculear submarine fleet (nuke weapons that is) will DECIMATE the mid-east, and make the ENTIRE mideast, INCLUDING RIYAD, MECCA, and EVERY SINGLE oil field inthe mid-easy UNUSABLE for the next 300 year.

This will be the Nuculear (as our DEAR dodo-headed president says) WINTER to END ALL WINTERS.

The good news (if we "christians" in the us of a) are lucky, is that
perhaps Israel will also have taken out ALL the OTHER islamic countries, like PAKISTAN, as well as muslim FAR EAST.

But by that time, we'll have ALL heard that LOUD un-mistakable TEKIAH GODOLAH Shofar call, signaling the destruction of our physical world, and our (all) moving to a new spiritual metapysical plane.

ME? I'd rather let George W. play president for 2 more years, especially if someone can stop him from nuking Iran first. that would be a VERY bad card to play.

---> (13) Anyway, I disagree with your sentiments. ME too Fritzy. I think I have done a very thorough job of proving your statements mostly incorrect, or not based on facts. Howerver, for what it's worth, it IS YOUR opinion, and I respect it too!

---> (14) I also think we deviated from my initial point, which is that violence is no way in keeping with Christianity, and I'm tired of Conservative Christians using Israel and war and violence as some kind of new biblical excuse to abuse power.

I agree. The current government of Neo-cons deserves to be tried en-masse as war criminals, and placed in line to be tortured, as their punishment, exactly the same punsihments that they allowed in their "unconstitutional" modifications to the constitution.


Sincerly
Mark b in nj

4 comments:

FRITZ said...

i'm sorry i hit such a chord with you.

i'm sorry that things aren't better in that region.

i'm sorry that the Jewish people have often been made to suffer at the hands of others.

i'm sorry that Europe carved apart a land they had no business carving apart.

for every attack made on israel, israel has made an attack on palestine. none of that is good.

i choose to remain grounded in my opinion: we should not seek to protect the Biblical land of our forefathers if it means bringing about death and destruction for others. we must move beyond war and into peace. Jerusalem is sacred to three religions. Why can we not understand that the land is temporary?

Again, it is not Judaism I am attacking. It is modern day Israel I am tired of.

The UN gave Israel that land, yes. But what did the UN or Britain or USA know about that area? Nothing. There were farmers, shepherds, people who made their livelihood in those hills. It is just as cruel to uproot them as we uprooted the native americans. and yes, the ottoman empire was a bloody and merciless campaign to exterminate anyone who got in their way. Granted.

Sometimes, we just have to live with history and know that repeating it is wrong.

I'm sorry, Mark. I don't agree with your sentiments, and no amount of discussion on this point will change my mind. I'm tired of the excuses. I would like to just see some effort made on all parts in the ME. Until then, I make my decisions based on what I see and know as fact.

Markbnj said...

Fritz said "I am an angry woman. I only hope God will remind me of forgiveness."
hee-hee. every morning we (jews who actually PRAY in our lives) PRAY that our lies, misdeeds, slips, mess ups, etc are forgiven by god..." I'm sure he hears you too...
But...
Fritz replied to my comment above here
http://markbnj.blogspot.com/2006/08/israel-oh-fritzy-fritzy-fritzy.html#c115702758181931675

BUT... I say:
0) Yes, you hit the "bs I 'aint an anti semite' chord
1) I agree things aren't better there.
2) Yes, Us Jews have suffered for thousands of years.
Even at the hands of (excuse sarcasm...SO CALLED
christians)
3) EUROPE DID carve a land apart. Were they WRONG? (*)
Everyone did it then.. EVEN the ARABS (MUSLIMS)
4) THERE IS No LAND of PALESTINE. WHY? See my factoid fact # 2 (un's 1948 resolution, and fact#3 (the 1948 ARAB rejection of a TWO state RESOLUTION.)
Ergo, AND READ THIS CAREFULLY
comments AND EMPHASIS ADDED ON PURPOSE:
HAD THE ARAB COUNTRIES (IN 1948, OR EVEN TODAY) EVER EVER ACCEPTED THE UN TWO STATE PARTITION PLAN TO CREATE TWO STATES IN THE BRITISH AREA, THERE WOULD. BE A STATE OF PALESTINE TODAY..
THE LAND MASS OF PALESTINE WOULD HAVE BEEN TWO THIRDS OF WHAT IS TODAY JORDAN. EVER SINGLE F*ICKING ARAB/MUSLIM EXTREMEIST TODAY WOULD HAVE A F*UC*ING HOMELAND AND THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEM.


However, GUESS what? SEE my factoids above. INSTEAD, they chose to attack a newly formed state because they believed the new state was NOT valid.

ARE YOU telling ME that the state of ISRAEL does NOT deserve to exist today??
And you claim you're NOT anti-semetic?
Sorry ANTI-Zionist ALSO gets defined as ANTI-SEMITISM in modern america and today's world. No dice dear.

5) WHAT bullturds. for every attack made on Israel, we have attacked PALESTINE? BS. Let;s review
GO HERE: http://markbnj.blogspot.com/2006/07/mideast-israel-vs-arab-world-redux.html
for a brief history of the wars Israel has Been FORCEd into.
Yes, in 1967, Israel struck first, but ONLY after Egypt had such a troop build up,that EVERYONE knew they were about to attack.

Oh you say we should sit back and accept this?
NO the bible SHOWS us that God provided TOOLS for the Jews to FIGHT.

Perhaps if the ARABs would FINALLY accept the BASIC premise (STIL NOT EVEN ACCEPTED by the so called PLO!!![in arabic]) that ISRAEL has a right to EXIST, then there would be NO MORE wars there.

6--again---you say i choose to remain grounded in my opinion: we should not seek to protect the Biblical land of our forefathers if it means bringing about death and destruction for others.

AGAIN this was discussed in the BIBLE. God did NOT provide for "modern" "Nice" warfare. IT was BRUTAL. It was deadly, and this is Bullshit again.
In the bible (I refer to the bible as ONLY the "old testament btw...)
God told Moses, and Joshua that they needed to OBLITIRATE the defeated ENEMY, and that EVERY SINGLE adult male, male child, and married woman (or over childbearing age) WAS TO BE KILLED. NO EXCEPTIONS.
today this would be called ethnic cleansing.

Do I wish I could go back to 1919 and start doing this to my brothers (the sons of Ishmael?) SURE. Just as THEY tried to do this THEN, as well as NOW.

Jerusalem is sacred. Yes. Who was there FIRST?
The Jews. We were thrown out for bad behavior. What happened? in 1948 the Arabs OFFICIALLY had control of Jerusalem. What happened? Lets see. A few hotels were put up in the middle of Pristine CEMETARIES. ROADS were paved with Jewish Headstones, and NO JEWS were allowedto worship at the temple mount from 1948 until 1967 (19 years)
In that SAME 20 years AFTERWAARDS (1967 till today)
EVERy single faith is ALLOWED inside their holy spaces to worship.
No bullshit You can't get in.

LAND is temporary? WHY? in that case can I have the title to you/michael's apartment and cycles, and cars???

7) Again, it is not Judaism I am attacking. It is modern day Israel I am tired of.
...Again this is a bs defense. Today we jews say if you ain't a friend of israel, perhaps there MIGHT be a TEENY bit of background behind that claim of being only "against Israel", but not being ANTI-SEMETIC..
But again "IF IT LOOKS LIKE A ROSE, STINGS LIKE A ROSE, SMELLS LIKE A ROSE, AND HAS PETALS LIKE A ROSE, IT is A ROSE, DESPITE THE NAME, DESPITE YOUR CLAIMS TO THE CONTRARY.

-->8 The UN gave Israel that land, yes. But what did the UN or Britain or USA know about that area? Nothing.
Let's NOT start on the stupid "brit-o-phile" 'lawrenece of arabia' complex that started this bs.
It was mis-represented, and the british mainly screwed this up, believing that ALL their arab friends were totally honest and trustworthy, and would NEVER EVER LIE.

example: Sir Winston's STUPID-ASSEd gift of 2/3rds of the british mandate land to create Trans-Jordan reduced the available land for the future ARAB( AND jewish) states.

-->9There were farmers, shepherds, people who made their livelihood in those hills. It is just as cruel to uproot them as we uprooted the native americans.
Sorry. see my factoid about land ownership.
Them cadgy smart assed jews. They actually had the F*cking neve to BUY the land from UNDER the farmers, nomads and shepards, and LEGALLY bought the land.

Oh excuse me... You're squatting in your apartment now, since you gave ME the deed, right? Sorry charlie.

-->10 the ottoman empire was a bloody and merciless campaign to exterminate anyone who got in their way. Granted.
Actually I kind of disagree. They believed in local rule. it seems to be a problem ONLY in that one of the standard practices was baksheesh (graft)
handing out $$$ was the ONLY way to get ANYTHING accomplished in the Ottoman/Turkish empire.
(and is of course STILL accepted in many muslim countries)

-->11 Sometimes, we just have to live with history and know that repeating it is wrong.
OH I agree. I would actually HATE to have to do that ethnic cleansing thing today.. it seems SO SO CRUEL.

-->12 I'm sorry, Mark. I don't agree with your sentiments, and no amount of discussion on this point will change my mind.
That's fine. But you need to understand that YOUR WORDS, AND ACTIONS are anti semetic, despite what you claim.
I tried to explain WHY this is, and how some of your comments are anti-semetic... You are free to do whatever you like.

--.13 I'm tired of the excuses.
Sorry. I don't think I provided ONE excuse.

-->14 I would like to just see some effort made on all parts in the ME. Until then, I make my decisions based on what I see and know as fact.
---------->please understand what you are seeing IS NOT fact either. It sounds as if (please forgive me in advance) that you had made a decision that someone I know and love once did... that is to marry out of our faith, and married a moslem. The man lied to her, said he wasn't religious, and was lying through his teeth. Thank heavens 20 years later they are divorced, but she admitted that she was just being a rebel from her parents at the time...

BUT the DRIVEL you speak as claiming as FACT. ISNT. PERIOD.
Yes people in the "so called" occupied terrorities suffered. But did you know that from 1967 until the FIRST infata and terror bombings in the late 1980's that UNEMPLOYMENT in the west bank was LESS then 2%, and that the ECONOMIC development was booming?

Well excuse me. if YOU start throwing BOMBS at me., and I respond by putting up a wall so you can't throw bombs at me, you can't expect ME to keep YOU on as am employee and actually PAY you, can YOU????

They chose to attack INNOCENT civilians and NON-COMBATANTS. We responded by eliminating their employment opportunities.
Oh poor palestinains... we big fat ugly israelis (READ JEWs) DENIED them their living, because we were no longer interested in getting killed by them.

Guess What fritz. Are you familiar with Max Headroom from the 1980's?
We're getting closer and closer to that.
Lo0ok at our president, and how he's DISTORTED the constitution.

CAN you REALLY say it is IMMORAL for ISRAEL to refuse entry INTO israel by palestinians when a small YET VERY VOCAL and VERY DESTRUCTIVE minority continue to tyry and kill us?

If so, we don't have to talk, and nothing I can say will change your mind.

Markbnj said...

And Speaking of OSC (orson Scott Card), he has a new book coming out next month.
EMPIRE: a chilling look at a near-future scenario of a new American Civil War.

You can read about it and read the
FIRST quarter of the book HERE http://www.hatrack.com/osc/books/empire/empire.shtml

Seven Star Hand said...

Hello Mark and all,

Understanding the Fatal Flaws in Judeo-Christian-Islamic Prophecy

I pose to you and others that the context and meaning of these ancient texts have been lost on those confused by the assertions of religious leaders and founders. Ancient wisdom has been purposely recast and obfuscated into religion and mysticism. Consequently, the interpretations presented about the sources and meaning of these texts and the philosophy and cosmology of ancient Hebrew sages is completely wrong. Before you scoff and write me off, you should understand that I speak from personal knowledge and experience...

Remember the saying that "the truth will set you (and others) free?" How does "opening one's eyes to the truth" relate to "making the blind see again" or "shining the light" or "illuminating a subject?" Notice the inherent symbolism associated with this supposed New Testament "miracle?"

Did you ever consider that Christianity is the False Prophet symbolized in the Apocalypse, that Rome (Vatican/Papacy) is the so-called anti-messiah, and Jesus Christ is the false messiah? I have produced stunning and comprehensive proof that this is the true interpretation of pivotal prophecies long confounded by Christianity's founders and leaders. Recasting the symbolism of earlier Hebrew texts as literal events in the New Testament is one of the central deceptions associated with Christianity.

As certain world leaders strive to instigate a fabricated "battle of Armageddon," it is vital to understand and spread the truth about these ancient texts to help bring about an end to such abominable evil. You can never expect philosophies based on lies and great error to lead to peace and harmony. How many more millennia of terrible proof is necessary before humanity finally gets a clue that most have been utterly deceived by the very concept of religion.

Without it, Bush, the Neo-Cons, and their cohorts could never have gained and retained political power by manipulating an already deluded and susceptible constituency. Likewise, their thinly-veiled partners in crime, Bin Laden and his ilk, could never have succeeded in their roles in this centuries-old Vatican-led grand deception.

Have you ever heard of Machiavelli? What better way to hide the truth than to divide people among three related but divergent religions (or other strong delusions) that each obscure the truth while claiming that each is the truth!

Want to see the symbol for the tri-part endless loop and logic-trap that such a three-part Machiavellian delusion forms? Ever seen a Triquetra ( and here)? Pay very close attention to its visual relationship to 666, the most famous of all triangular numbers.

Now consider how money, religion, and politics are inseparable because of the inescapable trap (bottomless pit) they form...

We are all trapped in a web of deception woven with money, religion, and politics. The great evils that bedevil us all will never cease until humanity finally awakens, shakes off these strong delusions, and forges a new path to the future.

Here is Wisdom...

Peace...