Tuesday, August 08, 2006

DialoG: More Stuff on mideast dialog

In the Ongoing discussion on the mideast we're now having with our brothers At 7:05 PM, August 07, 2006, Fares said... to check out this post at his blog, discussing more of our problems, and how to get over them...

So, rather then commenting there, I am pointing this comment as my answer.
He said...snip...On a positive personal note, some short bloody conflict between some cousins have ended after few months of bitter dispute over silly matters. It was hell just a month ago, on a visit to NJ, I could not see them all at the same time, It was one family or the other and that complicated everything from logistic to planning, to everyone being frustrated and angry arguments were flying left and right. I just received some pictures of the 1st Birthday of their common nephew and everyone seemed so happy to be together, peace was finally made
Hey . Congrats on the family burying the hatchet.

I wish it were that easy for all of US to do this.

Think back to the story of when Jacob and Esau meet after Jacob has been gone (21 years?)
First Jacob sends 7-10 different servants ahead of him with gifts.
If it were only so easy with us. (life would then be a breeze)

Next:
---------
-------------next----------...snip...
In case Israel opts for real peace, Syria (and Lebanon) has some beauty to offer, as expressed in some recent pictures posted by a fellow Syrian blogger. It is of Kassab in the northen cost of Syria (they have gorgeous sunsets) where mountains and nature meet the sea. They have also the best flavored apples you can imagine, my uncle used to bring up some apples from Kassab when we were kids.
mark sez: Hey, at the risk of provoking you (disputed territory), Banyes, as well as the mountain in the golan heights is Totally beautiful
but, if we can do peace, and be safe, take it back....And enjoy...
----next--------
Apparently Hizbolla hides smart missiles in ordinary cars, they could not bomb that bridge at night. So goes the theory of avoiding civilian casualties.
--------->Mark Sez:
But the point is that Hizbolla is NOT going out of their way to
make sure the population of Lebanon is safe.
------- ----------
So, how would YOU respond?

Think of it this way...
Imagine we're in IRAQ.
Sunni vs Shite
(see href="http://http://markbnj.blogspot.com/2006/07/mideast-becoming-hawk-too-few-troops.html">My Iraq predictions here
I say we need to figure out how we can SAVE both sides from themselves!!!!

Now. Does it apply to Israel/Lebanon?? Perhaps. Perhaps Not.
-----------

---------
Now to Hashem's comments...
...snip...
Viewing the conflict from the Palestinian and now Lebanese point of view things are not as clear cut as you put them. ...snip...There are people who always believed and still do that Israel is out there to destroy them and take their land. ...snip.

Mark sez---> Yes, and we're now 58 years AFTER the CREATION of the STATE of ISRAEL, and they're dealing with HISTORY from 60 years ago.
TRUE. 60 Years ago, the UN declared a two state solution, and YOU (forgive the finger pointing here) the ARAB countries ABSOLUTELY and irrevocably FORBID this from taking place, THUS declaring Perpetual war against us(Jews/Israel) as well as creating three generations of REFUGEES.

LETS go back. Let's go back to 1914, and World War I.
Lets go back slightly FURTHER.
The Jewish Agency... Started to DISLOCATE the SQUATTERS who were living on land in PALESTINE, that was OWNED by people in SYRIA, LEBANON, and all other points NO WHERE in the Holy LAND.

These people may have lived on these lands for 50 or even 200 years.
It was NOT until a CONCERTED effort was made to LEGALLY purchase the land, from the LEGAL LANDOWNERS, that these people did not realize that they were "squatters" and that big-wigs in Damascus, Tyre, and all those other ARAB cities owned Thousands and thousands of acres in Palestine.

This is the GRAND FRAUD that lies behind the misnomer that ISRAEL "STOLE" Arab lands.
The land wasn't THEIRS.

Oh, you say you lived there for 50 years, and no one ever paid rent or asked you for rent, so it's your land? No Problem... You DO have a claim on the LAND then. And no one could dispute the fact that it's YOUR land. Right?

Oh, You say you lived there for 100 years, and no one ever paid rent or asked you for rent, so it's your land? No Problem... You DO have a claim on the LAND then. And no one could dispute the fact that it's YOUR land. Right?

Oh, You say you lived there for 500 years, and no one ever paid rent or asked you for rent, so it's your land? No Problem... You DO have a claim on the LAND then. And no one could dispute the fact that it's YOUR land. Right?
Oh, You say you lived there for 1,000 years, and no one ever paid rent or asked you for rent, so it's your land? No Problem... You DO have a claim on the LAND then. And no one could dispute the fact that it's YOUR land. Right? No problem.

Well. Here's the rub. OUR civilization (Judaism) beats yours by 2,000 years.
We start at about 3,000 BCE(before Christian Era), and HAD proof that we WERE in the land about 2500 BCE. AND you (since you agree that you come from the SAME father)
agree we OWNED (and were GIVEN the LAND) 2,000 years ago.

OK. We owned the land in 69CE. We were forcibly evicted. We STILL own the darned land, and we have FIRST DIBS on it. SO OUR claims of it being OUR LAND 1,900 years ago comes BEFORE your claims that it was YOUR land 1,000 years ago!

So. We've just reduced the ENTIRE MID-East conflict to a "HE-Said/SHE said fight"
So, Sticks and stones (and Katusha's) can break my bones, but it's STILL our land.

BUT. Because we REALLY REALLY REALLY want peace after 60 years of having a country without peace, (and about 160 years of working towards it), WE want YOU TOO to be happy.

Therefore, our REAL claims of Biblical Israel (look in the book of Numbers for some references)
that Goes WAY beyond the Jordan River, and WAY past TYRE in the north
ARE NOT being FORCED on your current day borders.

And all we really want is a PERMANENT and VIABLE peace. Not the "cold" peace we have had with Egypt for 26 years (since 1980)... But a REAL peace, where we can have OUR passport stamp in YOUR Passport without YOU having problems when YOU go home!

IE. Let's give it all up, and start trading together. I'm sure we can provide LOTS of creature comforts (and Electronic comforts) that you (as a pan-arabic people) may not easily have.

ALL we are REALLY asking is that you GIVE up the F#$#-ed up dream of another PAN-ARAB state encompassing the ENTIRE Mid-East. That will NEVER happen again. EVEN if there is another SALADIN.

The results of that would be a nuclear winter over the entire mid-east.
Even if Iran (or even Pakistan) has THE bomb and targets Israel, you don't think Israel would be able to retaliate, even after they were destroyed?
See THIS lovely piece from earlier in my blog, for a VERY (I think) CHILLING view of Armageddon (or GOG vs. MaGog)

Essentially, if you're too lazy to read....

Israel HAS:

  1. A submarine Fleet with STRATEGIC implications.
  2. (we presume...) nuclear weapons...
To me, adding two plus two, usually gives me four...

SO... Let's presume IRAN gets the bomb and uses it.
(BY the way, even if you're Arab, and especially if you're reading this in say...SYRIA)
YOU OWE ISRAEL BIG time for destroying Saadam's nuclear REACTOR in 1981!!!

OK. Iran gets the bomb, and sacks ALL of Israel,
From the golan heights (oops, that was Syria), all the way down to Gaza *(oops that wasn't Israel.. Was it... and all points in between)

SO you think that's it???

Get reasonable. See Number one above? Strategic IMPLICATIONS?
Get Reasonable See Number two above? A N-Bomb?

2 plus 2 equals 4.

Bomb plus Strategic implications equals a Glowing FLATTENED RADIOACTIVE MID-East.
Don't bother.
We may be dead, but You'll be dead too, and your oil will be dead and radioactive too.


SUMMARY


THUS why:
  • Israel doesn't want IRAN to have the bomb.
  • Israel Wants TRADE, NOT bombs.
  • Israel wants a WARM peace, NOT an ICE COLD peace like we have with Egypt.
  • Israel wants its NEIGHBORS (and brothers) to accept the 1948 UN two state SOLUTION, and FINALLY accept ISRAEL's RIGHT to exist.
  • Israelis STILL vist Sharm-el-Shek, in the Sinai, despite the fact it's now in EGYPT, AND despite the fact that we've occupied Sharm-el-Shek twice, during the 1956 war, and 1967-1981.
  • Israel tried to give Egypt the Gaza Strip back in 1980 (did you Know Egypt REFUSED to take it back? harumph!
And mostly WHY we want to have PEACE, NOT terrorists who threaten both YOUR and OUR civilian Populations to play games, and make brownie points!!!

5 comments:

Fares said...

I posted this on freesyria, double posting since it is discussing the same issue:

Mark, I understand your arguments and your moderate Israeli views, but we need to get out of this cycle of violence. Problems won’t be solved and we can blame each other for eternity but this Lebanon/Israel war is a repetition of the disastrous Iraqi war and is managed by the same people. The incompetant Bush team. Arabs are as sensitives as the jews. We (arab countries) could not absorb the refugees because we are not developed nations like Canada or the US. The gulf countries and Jordan succeeded more because of their relatively original small population. But still palestinians did not feel welcome in Kuwait and that is why they sided with Saddam in 90.

As for accepting Israel in the region, it is now done. We don’t want to be a big arab nation again. It is not feasible but Isreal is uniting all arabs now (very hard and impossible to do) with its action just like HA is uniting Israel more or less.

It is in the interest of all of us to stop fighting and build trust and trade.

Here is what I posted on Ammar’s site
“Ammar great post, although I am starting to blame both sides now more than ever and the urgency is to stop this war then deal with Assad not the other way around, unless there is a coup in the cards but I doubt it at this stage.

Alex great arguments, although you present as usual Bashar as the only future for Syria. I understand you at this phase.

Israel and Bush in fact are strenghtening Assad and Nasralla stand big time…Israel has succeeded in uniting the arabs from all kind of backgrounds: moderates, liberals, nationalists, conservatives, islamists etc all are united to defend Lebanon and stop this agression.

Bush and his neocons show up to remind us who the real threat is, Iraq is still very fresh and their strategy of arab-hatred is very obvious and exposed. I think events in the grounds are dictating Bush’s strategy now, ie the more Israel looses (such as yesterday Sunday) the more Bush would be willing to compromise. Rice was really cornered yesterday on Meet the Press, she was being reprimended big time for her approach and her role in escalating the conflict.

They betrayed the Cedar revolution big time and stabbed Seniora in the back, I think (and confirmed that from some personal sources) that the Israeli plan was ready to destroy Lebanon, regardless of what Hizbolla did. Another excuses would have been found, or provoking HA into doing something similar. I can’t believe that Bush repeated today Soldiers being kidnapped was the reason for this war, he repeated that 10 times. He got everything so wrong. The positive thing is that they are not repeating the usual mantra “Israel has the right to defend itself” which they repeated for 2 weeks. They know what kind of shit Israel is in and they want to save face.

I read that HA is ready to continue at the same rythm for 100 days! so this war won’t end before November unless Israel chooses to end it. Which is very likely considering how they understimated everything and fooled everyone about their goals. The arab and western confusion is over, they got over that the first few days and it tooks 2-3 weeks to understand what is going on. The american public is now split on ending this war which is a great thing. More pressure is needed to end this war.”

In my comment I did not mean the people of Israel wanting to destroy Lebanon but rather the extreme elements of the Israeli system. You’ll refuse that now but eventually the truth will emerge as it always did since Israelis always have open debates about events and how they happened.

Markbnj said...

Fares:

I agree and disagree... You said...
...snip...I understand your arguments and your moderate Israeli views, but we need to get out of this cycle of violence.
--> I agree with this. But as I've been "quoting" Billy Joel, "We Didn't start the fire. It's been slowly burning for at least a hundred years."

...snip...Problems won’t be solved and we can blame each other for eternity but this Lebanon/Israel war is a repetition of the disastrous Iraqi war and is managed by the same people.

---> I totally agree. Bush and the Neo-CONS who currently are RULING the United States of Amerika, (and who I predicted will be the next benevolent dictator in 2 years)
ONly Mis-Calculated in that this was supposed to be the "OCTOBER Surprise"
which was to be the BIG Push to RE-ELECT a REPUBLICAN Congress.

VOTE DEMOCRATIC. THROW out ALL the REPUBLICIANS.
The PAST 6.5 years have shown why it is terrible for this country to have a President and a Congress in the SAME party.

Bush has taken a thriving Democracy, and made Democracy a four letter word, and partially illegal to boot.

I STILL predict That George W. Bush will EVENTUALLY be indicted by the UN as a WAR CRIMINAL for starting this CRAZY illegal war.


As for Arab Acceptance of Israel?
I don't think you are in the majority here.

I still hear lots from (example) palestinians in the west bank), saying
I used to live in Yaffo (a suburb of Tel-Aviv).
I can't wait till we kill them all, and I get my land back.

Until the EDUCATION of Arab citizens starts to SHOW a STate of ISRAEL on their geography map, THIS wil NEVER happen.

Augh.

I still say the easiest way to Formally end the un-official (but STILL IN EFFECT) Arab boycott of ISRAEL is:

a COUNTER-boycott of Israel products to Arab countries!

If Israel were to pass a law saying that Technology DEVELOPED in ISRAEL May NOT be SOLD, exported or given to ANY COUNTRY that does NOT explictly recognize Israel, its boundries, and it's right to exist per the UN 1948 Two state soultion.

Guess What...
Got arabic fonts on your PC?
Got WIndows XP Home OR PRO
Got WIndows 2000 Server?
Got Windows 2000 pro
Got WIndows 2003 Server?
Got WIndows XP
Got a Pentium 4 or Dual Core Processor?>

That would be the FASTEST way to gain FAIR RECOGNITION...

Markbnj

Fares said...

Mark,

I agree with some of your points. I don't think it is the republican party though which is resposbile for the Iraq war or for Bush's failures. It is partly responsible...I am not democrat or republican supporter but I am anti war. Bush senior for example had more balance in his policies than his son. Clinton though much better than Bush has his moments of war in Yugoslavia and Iraq 98.

I am agaisnt boycott of things from both sides...people usually get around and adapt to boycotts and embargo but the psycological damage is much more than that. It is like a brother or a sister not attending a big family event, no one loses but it creates more tension and ammunition to continue the fight.

PEACE and I know these days are difficult but we need to keep sanity and moderation alive.

Fares said...

Mark, come see what your hawkish friends are up to

Harming Syria, Dream on

Fares said...

Bush latest Trick

Breaking the cycle of violence